It's widely recognized that infrastructure are central to societal goals, that changes to infrastructure and how we use them can have profound impacts on people and economies. It's critical to recognize that infrastructure are the hammer at the end of the arm, and the arm is governance. In the second episode of the Infrastructure of the Anthropocene series, Professor Mikhail Chester (@mikhailchester) of Arizona State University interviews Professor Mary Uhl-Bien (@MaryUhlBien) of Texas Christian University about how infrastructure is governed and why, and particularly about what she has learned about leadership in complexity. The conversation explores complexity leadership theory, the differences between the leadership models used to govern now and those relevant to an age of uncertainty, and the critical role the threat of failure plays in driving adaptation. Metis Center for Infrastructure and Sustainable Engineering | Arizona State University: https://metis.asu.edu/ Convergence Resilience Research Project | http://convergence.urexsrn.net/. Listen on iTunes, StitcherGoogle Podcasts, Spotify, or Buzzsprout. If you have questions, comments, or suggestions for future episodes, e-mail us at [email protected] or find us on Twitter @FutureCitiesPod. Learn more about the Urban Resilience to Extremes Sustainability Research Network (UREx SRN) at www.sustainability.asu.edu/urbanresilience.